CITES amendment

[Lanmark]

Wow! A very thought-provoking and informative thread! Can more be done to create conservation areas in the orchids natural habitats so we do not loose them in the wild? I spent 16 years naturalizing as many plants as possible in our 10 acres of land and it is rewarding to know that the plants will live on after I am gone.

I like how you think and take action, etex
Those of us who cannot naturalize plants on our own land can do as Dot suggested: Donate to conservation groups.
No money? No problem! Give of your time and your talent.
___________________________

Sanderianum has raised some valid points regarding the pitfalls of using propagation to preserve the species. I say let's try even harder then to find real solutions to these pitfalls. Let's aim for a higher success rate than what we've achieved in the past.

Regarding the Traditional Chinese Medicine trade and the widespread depletion and destruction which results from it:

Education and peer pressure are useful tools in changing the way people think about these practices. Hardcore political and economic pressures could come into play, too, but these must be tempered with concessions and a spirit of goodwill if the world is to remain civil. Research to find popular yet viable alternatives could help the situation too. There will always be a few who will not be dissuaded from having tiger bones or musk pods, Dendrobium gregulus or Paph helenae in their medicine chests, but I believe with enough education, pressure to change, and development of alternative products, the demand for endangered species can be greatly diminished. CITES is part of this effort to bring change, but at least as far as orchids are concerned, it seems to have gone madly awry. I hope a cacophony of raised voices and an abundance of reasoned argument will bring positive change to the current CITES conundrum.
___________________________

As hopeless as I feel about this situation, I still believe it is worth the effort to speak out, to take action, and to do something useful which will help improve the current state of affairs.

 

[Roth]

Regarding the Traditional Chinese Medicine trade and the widespread depletion and destruction which results from it:

Education and peer pressure are useful tools in changing the way people think about these practices.

Research to find popular yet viable alternatives could help the situation too. There will always be a few who will not be dissuaded from having tiger bones or musk pods, Dendrobium gregulus or Paph helenae in their medicine chests, but I believe with enough education, pressure to change, and development of alternative products, the demand for endangered species can be greatly diminished.

Asia is a mixture of modernism and tradition. The tradition will always be respected no matter the education. The people who use bear bile, rhino horn - still very popular here, smuggled from Africa monthly -, orchids for traditional medicine are very well educated, but they will rely on the tradition side to follow this kind of medicine. Most think we do not understand how good this traditional medicine is, most think that it does not work if they do not believe in it. And when you have cancer and should die according to the doctors, wouldn't you risk to take some of that rhino horn or bear bile, or dendrobium strongylanthum to be saved ???

CITES is completely useless regarding this kind of trade, because CITES is paperwork and good wills, the officers that enforce CITES in every country cannot watch everything everywhere all the time, and smuggling has always be more powerful than anything else. Think about drug smuggling. Still the same amount everywhere worldwide, and the police has never, ever, done anything that really slowed down the trade, just delayed a bit here and there something. But the supply is nearly constant, one has to be realistic...

Be hedonistic, that's the only way to cope with that situation...

 

[baodai]

People loves to blame others. In USA, people thing FWS and CITES is strickly, I think organization like AOS, HCC etc is really discriminate ... I hope these oragnization will get it straight before they can finger point at someone else. For example, Paph that orignate from Vietnam's illegal to export. It is legal to some nurseries just because someone from that country make them legal. Then if you bring a paph to HCC, AOS they will require you to have papper so they can judge your plant. But did they forget all paph from Vietnam is illegal? So, does it matter if you have paper or not? it is still illegal??? So, why AOS require you have to have paper to judge?
I will sit quiet at the conner from now on after i'm making my second point:
For years some species distinct from the wild and new species found. So, Does it matter if the local people kill plants that from their region? (for years they have been doing this, that is how they know how to support their family, Can the outsider come in and tell them to change the way the live!!!). So, why the people from outside the country want to come in and tell the local what to do? They will collect plants and no one can stop them. It doesn't matter if there will be paph in the wild or not, New species will be found. You can't educate the local, but you can educate the outsider for not purchase plants from the local. I hope some of you realize that, no one come can come into your house and tell you what to eat, how to dress etc, but now you want to come into our village and tell us what to do ...
Good day all
Peace,
BD

 

[Lanmark]

Asia is a mixture of modernism and tradition. And when you have cancer and should die according to the doctors, wouldn't you risk to take some of that rhino horn or bear bile, or dendrobium strongylanthum to be saved ???

...

Be hedonistic, that's the only way to cope with that situation...

If someone told me I would be cured of my cancer if I twisted the head off of a cute little baby, I wouldn't do it! By the same token I won't take rhino horn, musk pods, tiger bones, bear bile or Dendrobium strongylanthum either. I'm not that egocentric. Hedonism is what got us to where we are today. Don't get me wrong...it's always fun to be a little bit naughty! :evil:

People loves to blame others. In USA, people thing FWS and CITES is strickly, I think organization like AOS, HCC etc is really discriminate ... I hope these oragnization will get it straight before they can finger point at someone else.

I will sit quiet at the conner from now on after i'm making my second point:
For years some species distinct from the wild and new species found. So, Does it matter if the local people kill plants that from their region? (for years they have been doing this, that is how they know how to support their family, Can the outsider come in and tell them to change the way the live!!!). So, why the people from outside the country want to come in and tell the local what to do? They will collect plants and no one can stop them. It doesn't matter if there will be paph in the wild or not, New species will be found. You can't educate the local, but you can educate the outsider for not purchase plants from the local. I hope some of you realize that, no one come can come into your house and tell you what to eat, how to dress etc, but now you want to come into our village and tell us what to do ...
Good day all
Peace,
BD

I don't point the finger of blame at any one specific group. It is a large collection of circumstances and actions which over time have created the unfortunate and messy situation with which we are faced today. Just because you do not understand the logic of AOS, for example, does not mean AOS is 100% wrong in all of its policies. Just because I don't understand everything you say doesn't mean that everything you say and believe is 100% wrong either. Dealing in absolutes is a dangerous mindset. This is what I have been trying to point out all along. In order for our world to improve, we must all be willing to talk and change and compromise and work together to improve our condition. Simply debating the issues is not enough. We must work together to find viable solutions and then find a way to implement them through mutual respect and cooperation.

When someone teaches me, I am willing to learn. I am always open to new ideas and better ways of doing things. It is not a matter of one group telling another group how they must absolutely do things this way or that way. It is a matter of being shown a new and better way of doing things and being shown why it is better. This is known as "education" not "dictatorship". When it is done in a friendly, helpful and hopeful manner and when it provides the "locals" with new and exciting viable alternatives which provide new income opportunities, it can and will work. I believe over time a majority of people can and will change for the better if given the opportunity to do so. I think to flatly state "you can't educate the local" is simply absurd. Why settle for a self-imposed mindset of impossibility? If we try hard enough, if we offer them something better, if we provide them a new and better way to make a living, most of them can and will learn it. Just because they have been doing something the same way for fifty or a hundred or a thousand years doesn't mean they lack the ability to adapt. We all have brains and free will and we know how to use them. It's all about how people are approached and what attitude we project. Telling them what to do will only make them feel defensive and rebellious. Help them to improve their lives, however, and we will create friendships which last a lifetime. Surely we can do this while also promoting a new way of living which will help to preserve our planet and all the species which live herein.

I don't think you should sit quietly in the corner from now on, baodai :wink: I think your opinions and ideas are always valuable and provocative! I see and learn new things from what you say. Hopefully you see and learn new things from me as well. Gosh how boring would it be without a diverse group of people here to hash things over, share ideas, agree and disagree?! The free exchange of ideas and opinions is priceless! Generosity in friendship is everything! :clap:

 

[smartie2000]

its a cultural issue. People still take sharks fin, and I highly doubt that there are any benefits. Some medicines are taken for its prestige and just because you have the $$! I don't know if that is the case with orchids.

I just googled and I realized that I've seen Dendrobium officinale in herb shops! They wrapped up the psuedobulb canes into balls.

Is there any scientific literature on the benefits of using orchid medicine? I am sure they have been studied, given that orchids are so popular. (though there are problems with scientific literature since herbs are often mixed into a medicinal concoction, sometimes in specified amounts, and individual herbs don't work the same. But scientists want to study specific herbs, maybe down to a specific compound.)

 

[Lanmark]

its a cultural issue. People still take sharks fin, and I highly doubt that there are any benefits. Some medicines are taken for its prestige and just because you have the $$! I don't know if that is the case with orchids.

I just googled and I realized that I've seen Dendrobium officinale in herb shops! They wrapped up the psuedobulb canes into balls.

Is there any scientific literature on the benefits of using orchid medicine? I am sure they have been studied, given that orchids are so popular. (though there are problems with scientific literature since herbs are often mixed into a medicinal concoction, sometimes in specified amounts, and individual herbs don't work the same. But scientists want to study specific herbs, maybe down to a specific compound.)

TCM is fascinating! I respect the cultural and historical aspects of it and even why some may find prestige in its use. My understanding is that it is largely based on achieving balances in the body's Qi (Chi) or energy, blood/fluids and elemental properties. I am of the opinion that this type of medicine is richly layered with many beneficial practices amidst a lot of superstition and lore. I would be hesitant, though, to dismiss out of hand many of the substances and practices used in TCM without ample scientific proof to support such dismissal. I believe I have benefitted from some of the traditional type Chinese medical practices including acupuncture. Some would argue that any benefit I received was only a product of my own belief. Personally speaking, I have no desire to use a medicine which was produced at the steep expense of an endangered living creature. This is what I choose for myself. What others do is their choice. My hope is that we can find a way to satisfy everyone's needs without obliterating other species in the process. I look to the petri dish in the laboratory and hope that someday all these things can be cloned and artificially produced for the benefit of everyone.

I don't know of any scientific evidence supporting the use of orchids in medicine, but I don't know of any evidence disproving it either. Plants are well-known for the wide variety of complex small molecules which they produce. Many of these are found nowhere else in the world and hold great scientific potential. Many are still waiting to be discovered. Such is the tragedy of worldwide deforestation which causes the extinction of so many undocumented species of plants.

Does anyone here see any real hope of getting the CITES language changed to better solve the problems we face today? I'm not talking about history and who did what, when they did it, whether or not it was legal then, and whether or not that makes it legal now. Getting beyond that blame game and getting beyond who has this or that species in their possession, is it feasible to any of you that progress could be made in tweaking the CITES rules to better promote the survival today of the many endangered species in question?

 

[biothanasis]

Getting beyond that blame game and getting beyond who has this or that species in their possession, is it feasible to any of you that progress could be made in tweaking the CITES rules to better promote the survival today of the many endangered species in question?

No...simply no!!!

Endangered species' survival depends on more factors than mere trading! Many species are engangered just because their habitat is shrinking/destroyed! Others cause they are hunted to death! Others from overcollection! And many more...

CITES focuses on one factor but I do not think that such a legislation can protect anything, just control trading!!!

 

[Lanmark]

CITES focuses on one factor but I do not think that such a legislation can protect anything, just control trading!!!

Ah, I see, ok. So do you think it would be best to just abandon CITES altogether? Probably this won't happen, will it :/

 

[parvi_17]

Personally I feel CITES is useless. As far as I can tell, it has done nothing to stop or decrease overcollection. If anything, it has made it worse. I can't say that I have the solution, but there has to be a better alternative to this. This is just frustrating. If Canada adopts this amendment, I will puke.

 

[gonewild]

Government control over resources has never solved any problem without creating 10 problems more in it's place.

As has been pointed out in this thread no amount of laws, rules or wishful thinking will stop the inevitable.

If you want rural people to stop foraging in the forest send them enough food so that their children have as much to eat as your children do. Then you will see way less desire to go into the forest to try to collect something to exchange in the market. "Simple living" people do not work their butts off to collect plants for a few cents per kilo because they enjoy it, they have no other options to gain money. A man with a full stomach would rather lay around and sleep rather than risk his life in the jungle.

As far as the medicinal use of the plants no one will ever be able to grow the plants commercially to replace wild collected. In reality it is not the ecnomics and high cost of production. It is not the chemical content of the plants the healers are after it is the "healing spirits" the wild plants contain. To those that believe, captive raised plants lack the spiritual powers of wild plants and just won't ever be as good. So as long as ancient indigenous faith and knowledge exists wild plants will always be collected to heal mind, body and soul.

 

[valenzino]

To my eyes the problem is always one...money.
CITES is only burocracy.If CITES want to do something have only to use all the money take up with permits etc to propagate the endangered species and not to "enforce" that is only waste of money...or better political new jobs...and do 0% directly(someone asked this at WOC Dijon CITES Concference and the answer was SILENCE!!!)...so is only...as we say in italy MAFIA....is easy to control the market that way....
everyone can do something but no one really does because CITES prevent it...unfortunately I think that...if you examin all the possibilities,...CITES is only helping inlegal trade and plants extinction(Dams build where plants rescue is forbidden and impossible to export plants that can be saved in a deforested area where a new "luxury resort is built")...and very important...remember(no one say here) CITES focus more on wood(billions US$ bussiness) and animals.....
Peoples will always do what "they can do" for liveing...
and plants are down in the food chain...so in reality is only "orchids world" that complain sometimes about this problems ...means nothing to peoples that think that"they are important"....everyone hold strong his position....and dont see all sides of what is around them.

My proposal is...a tax can be putted on the plants on customers(not producers..if this happens the market will collapse) paper works etc...and all the money can be used to produce a World wide campaign orchids rescue,reproduction and production(the "opera must have an income,if not,cannot exist)...would you be so upset to pay 0.10 € for each plant you have?maybe receiving back(at your expenses) the "plant you never had"?
So....peoples asking for a solution...here is one...,who will agree and help?....and who will turn around?
Regards

 

[cnycharles]

sanderianum or whoever said that alot of this depends on politics was right. as was heard here before by someone else, a main chinese player made the fuss with cites that slippers were very endangered and should be cites 1. they are the same ones who have 'found' tons of slippers found in other countries that aren't supposed to be tradeable, so they have access to those slippers. the u.s. wants to keep china happy so they try to suggest and support cites interpretations that will best help their positions, which ends up being china's position. unfortunately, positions change very frequently depending on what politics are being presented at any particular time, so it ends up being there are poor people who collect these things because they need some way to get food (already pointed out by someone else), and can be swayed and manipulated by those that already have the wealth and influence and want to keep it/get more. there are many things behind scenes that are only about power influence and all that sort of thing by few people, and that is often why when it seems like something that should make the most sense is never done, is because the few have much different agendas than every one else (meaning they don't have to scrounge the forest trying to find a way to survive).

these things are just plants, and we like them but there are lots of plants. to the few, they are just little bits to be used, moved here and there... there is no real concern that something may not be around tomorrow or a new cure may never happen, though the rest of us do. here in the u.s we used to be prideful that we were 'Citizens', now we are just 'consumers'. if someone might think that I don't care about conserving orchids here or someplace else, that's wrong as well. I do my little part to try and educate people in this area about native orchids and why not to dig them up or make sure they buy them from someone who didn't dig them up illegally. also like already pointed out, unless someone can feed the people who go into the forest to dig up or pull down these interesting plants, then they shouldn't expect that the plants should come first. if someone is starving, all bets are off, no matter how much I would like every species to survive. if you lend someone a hand so that they have food, they may end up being very willing to help protect some interesting plants... but not while they're starving. it's very easy to say that 'something should be done' when we have enough to eat or have a roof over our heads; can you imagine when settlers and trappers were first moving through the eastern/mid-western north american region, and there was a blizzard; they had no food and then they happened to dig in the black wet ground where their wagon got stuck, and found a whole bunch of tubers of cypripedium candidum and decided that to survive they needed to eat them? how do you think they would have felt or responded if someone from eastern transylvania said 'oh no those are the rare lsasakfh; slipper; don't touch' (mildly expressed)? I believe the conservator-minded probably would have been shot. unless you can meet or find a way for those in need to cover their needs it's impossible to expect that they should care about things much less tangible to their survival. other's shoes need to be worn to understand why some things just aren't reasonable, even if it seems reasonable to us (who are well-fed). I sympathize with locals and sincere hobbyists; I just don't see a solution. things that make the most sense are the least likely thing to ever get accomplished (though I don't say that meaning that those that are trying to help should stop, just that I don't see well maybe an immediate solution....)
well enough rambling by me! :\

 

[biothanasis]

....other's shoes need to be worn to understand...

Yes yes...!!!! This is why we are today where we are!!! There is no care for the one next to us!!! Egoism, selfishness, arrogance & money!!!! If this pattern changes then everything can change...

 

[Mark Sullivan]

CITES regulates trade in endangered species. One way to get around CITES is to make the species no longer endangered in their native habitat.

CITES has many problems and it is not going to stop endangered species from going extinct. It is only a trade agreement.

Change happens on step at a time.

http://www.orchidconservationcoalition.org/

 

[smartie2000]

CITES regulates trade in endangered species. One way to get around CITES is to make the species no longer endangered in their native habitat.

CITES has many problems and it is not going to stop endangered species from going extinct. It is only a trade agreement.

Change happens on step at a time.

http://www.orchidconservationcoalition.org/

So all orchids are endangered?! I that that it is not likely the case, but a gross generalization

 

[parvi_17]

So all orchids are endangered?! I that that it is not likely the case, but a gross generalization

It is a great misconception. A relatively high percentage of orchids are endangered in part of their distribution, but it is not true that all orchids are endangered.

An example is that it is commonly believed that Cypripedium species are endangered. In Canada at least, only one is endangered, C. candidum (which is a sad fact). The rest are somewhat rare because they have specific habitat needs, but they can be very frequent in localized areas.

 

[smartie2000]

Well, my parviflorum gets pollinated each year, and I left a seed pod last season I saw Cypripedium (likely Parviflorum) get all trampled on in a bike trail this year, the only reason I knew was because I recognized the crumpled leaves. I don't know if this plant will have survived. so human activities are destructive, some more destructive than any orchid collector (deforestation).

Yup many orchids are just localized to specific niches. So it maybe a matter of defining endangered

 

[ejchow84]

I can't remember if it was said in this thread (cause it was an awfully long thread and I don't want to tread through it again >_<), but orchids are in general "rare". But I think the question is whether we should consider rare things endangered? I think they're two different things. (sorry if someone said this already... there are a lot of posts to read through!)

Ok, with regards to the update on CITES, what does this mean for the Vietnamese Paph species? After the amendment passes, will it be more legal or illegal to import these in flask? I know there was a lot of discussion about this, but I can't seem to sort through which is what.

Thanks guys! This is all such great information. You guys should come together to write a book!

 

[baodai]

ejchow84,
The first question you should ask is: Will the Vietnamese goverment make paph legally for trade? As i said before there is a "red book" from Vietnam. According to this book, paph is illegal for trade. If paph is illegal for trade then there is nothing CITES (amendment) can do to make it legal until the Vietmanese goverment change their law
BD

 

[baodai]

A quote from Jerry Lee Fischer of Orchids Limited
"If illegal aliens come into the US and have a child that child is an automatic US citizen. Plants IN VITRO should be considered in a similar light".
more from his website:
http://www.orchidweb.com/cites_orchids.aspx
BD