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Cattleya percivaliana ‘Summit’ FCC/AOS

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southernbelle

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Just acquired this small division of the original from Waldor (in spike). Flowers are a bit small, but considering the plant is only 3 pseudobulbs, I’m pleased. Really nice color.
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Guldal

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Southern Bellissima! :)
I've always heard the fragrance on these isn't great.
I've heard the scent described as rather variable, as if some people react more strongly to it than others - some even describe it as somewhat spicy and not unpleasant.
Maybe this is one of the instances, where it's
all "in the nose of the beholder" (it seems that there are individual differences in our olfactoric sense, due to differences in receptors and distribution of receptors - this is f.ex. the reason, why some people refrain from eating aspargus as they experience their pee smelling horrible afterwards, while other can't smell a thing).
What's your experience, Belle?
And smell or scent: the sight is darn gorgeous!
 

terryros

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It takes some days after opening for my percivalianas to become fragrant. I have a percivaliana ‘Alberts’ open about 5 days and today is the first day I have detected scent. To me, the fragrance becomes strong and distinctive but not unpleasant. You detect it as soon as you are in the room. Searching for descriptors, last year I found myself thinking of furniture polish! I will see what I think this year. It is quite different from all of the “floral” fragrances of most other Cattleyas. ‘Summit’ may well have been mericloned, but I think Waldor told Deb that her plant does not come out of a mericloned line.
 

terryros

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Our little Cattleya alliance sub forum probably knows that percivaliana ‘Summit’ is considered a tetraploid. I have a ‘Summit’ x self that has bloomed once for me and the leaves, pseudobulbs, and flowers are distinctly different from ‘Alberts’, which is a diploid. ’Alberts’ is a very robust growing cultivar (my original plant has become three) while my ‘Summit’ selfing has been a more reluctant grower and bloomer. Jerry Fischer told me that a cross of ‘Alberts’ with a tetraploid like ‘Summit’ would be interesting because some of the flower improvements could hold but the plant could be a more robust grower. Those triploids are often good hobbyist plants even if they turn out to be dead ends for breeding.
 

southernbelle

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Southern Bellissima! :)

I've heard the scent described as rather variable, as if some people react more strongly to it than others - some even describe it as somewhat spicy and not unpleasant.
Maybe this is one of the instances, where it's
all "in the nose of the beholder" (it seems that there are individual differences in our olfactoric sense, due to differences in receptors and distribution of receptors - this is f.ex. the reason, why some people refrain from eating aspargus as they experience their pee smelling horrible afterwards, while other can't smell a thing).
What's your experience, Belle?
And smell or scent: the sight is darn gorgeous!
😂🤣😅 I won't bite on my experience with it, however, I learned something about the asparagus phenomenon that you might find interesting. With the genetic testing companies like 23 & Me (who do health as well as ancestry genetics), you are told if you carry the gene that causes the post asparagus aroma in the bathroom. So, some if not all those olfactory variations apparently are genetically determined.
Re the fragrance of 'Summit'. I thought I remembered a mild pleasant but unusual fragrance at one point earlier in the bloom, but right now (noon) there is no fragrance at all. I'll check morning and afternoon on another day and see if it's a time of day thing.
 

southernbelle

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It takes some days after opening for my percivalianas to become fragrant. I have a percivaliana ‘Alberts’ open about 5 days and today is the first day I have detected scent. To me, the fragrance becomes strong and distinctive but not unpleasant. You detect it as soon as you are in the room. Searching for descriptors, last year I found myself thinking of furniture polish! I will see what I think this year. It is quite different from all of the “floral” fragrances of most other Cattleyas. ‘Summit’ may well have been mericloned, but I think Waldor told Deb that her plant does not come out of a mericloned line.
Terry, you are correct. This was sold as a division of the original plant and the tag with the FCC/AOS not in parentheses would indicate that, I've learned.
 

SouthPark

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This was sold as a division of the original plant and the tag with the FCC/AOS not in parentheses would indicate that, I've learned.
True! That format - with the award details not a part of the clonal name - is correct. The award details are kept separated from the single quotes clonal name.
 

terryros

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My understanding was that a mericloned awarded plant gave the award to all of the offspring mericlones. For example, Hausermann’s Cattleya Betty Ford ‘York’ has been mericloned multiple times. The plant was not awarded until many years after it had been in wide circulation. Once the AM was awarded, I believe that all of the Betty Ford ‘York’ plants attached the AM In the usual way. I have two different plants of Betty Ford ‘York’, both labeled with the AM, but the plant growth is detectably different between the two and the flowers are modestly different in color, shape, and substance. I don’t think this is a mislabeling issue but reflects the variation that can happen with mericloning.
 

Guldal

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My understanding was that a mericloned awarded plant gave the award to all of the offspring mericlones. For example, Hausermann’s Cattleya Betty Ford ‘York’ has been mericloned multiple times. The plant was not awarded until many years after it had been in wide circulation. Once the AM was awarded, I believe that all of the Betty Ford ‘York’ plants attached the AM In the usual way. I have two different plants of Betty Ford ‘York’, both labeled with the AM, but the plant growth is detectably different between the two and the flowers are modestly different in color, shape, and substance. I don’t think this is a mislabeling issue but reflects the variation that can happen with mericloning.
I think, you are right, Terry, but is it relevant here, as I understood Belle's plant is a division? Or did I miss out on something?!
 

terryros

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I was just responding to the issue of how the award is on the tag. I don’t think it matters whether something is a division or a mericlone - the HCC/AM/FCC would show up the same, right after the cultivar name. The tag can’t tell us whether something is a division or a mericlone. I know that Deb checked with (I think) Waldor on the status. I was surprised at the cost. My skepticism would only come from knowing that ’Summit’ has been cloned a fair bit. I happened to get an email with Carter and Holmes listing for special individual plants for sale. They described how their cloning of ‘Summit’ resulted in ‘Mendenhall-Summit’, which is improved over ‘Summit’ in several ways. They are listing one plant of ‘Mendenhall-Summit’ for $450 as I remember. Generally, divisions of the original, awarded plant of something are pretty pricey.
 

Guldal

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Terry, we don't know, what Belle paid for her division - and are, I'm sure, both of us too much of a gentleman to ask s Southern Lady a question like that!

That said, I think, you put your finger right in the wound of Catt-people, where it might hurt the most: to decide, whether what you buy, actually is a division of an awarded plant - or a division of a (good) mericlone of an awarded plant might in some cases be close to impossible; or take some skill that only very few growers acquire or posses. And that narrows it at a long stretch down to the trustworthiness of the seller, and maybe the one who sold the plant to him or her...and so forth in an infinete regression.

This, at least, is a point where life in the Paph- world is a bit easier: here we 'only' have to deal with accidentaly mislabelled plants; plants, that are sold as an awarded clone though it is in fact 'only' a selfing of same; errors due to a hotch pot of things - at the one end of the spectrum ignorance to willfull deception at the other; and so forth... Troubles are already legion, and mericloning not needed to complicate things further!
 

southernbelle

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Terry, we don't know, what Belle paid for her division - and are, I'm sure, both of us too much of a gentleman to ask s Southern Lady a question like that!

That said, I think, you put your finger right in the wound of Catt-people, where it might hurt the most: to decide, whether what you buy, actually is a division of an awarded plant - or a division of a (good) mericlone of an awarded plant might in some cases be close to impossible; or take some skill that only very few growers acquire or posses. And that narrows it at a long stretch down to the trustworthiness of the seller, and maybe the one who sold the plant to him or her...and so forth in an infinete regression.

This, at least, is a point where life in the Paph- world is a bit easier: here we 'only' have to deal with accidentaly mislabelled plants; plants, that are sold as an awarded clone though it is in fact 'only' a selfing of same; errors due to a hotch pot of things - at the one end of the spectrum ignorance to willfull deception at the other; and so forth... Troubles are already legion, and mericloning not needed to complicate things further!
Guidal, Terry is aware of what I paid as we discussed it prior to my purchase. I found the grower's prices for original divisions to be very reasonable and was surprised, so discussed it with him. A little background: Since I began investigating growing under LEDs in 2017, I was referred to Terry by Jerry Fischer of Orchids Ltd. who sold me my lights, as Jerry said he had several years experience with LEDs. I was very green and at the time there was very little info out on the subject (except using LEDs to grow marijuana which takes full sun all day!) Even Sandra Svoboda, the Chair of the AOS Education Committee at the time, was not able to help me except to send me one article, but she referred me to OL as she knew they sold the lights for growing orchids. So, Terry has been a true mentor to me over the last 3 + years. We have exchanged countless emails. His generosity of both his advice and information has saved me countless failures and having to learn most things the hard way. So, it was natural for me to seek his advice regarding this purchase, making sure I was correctly understanding the listing and seeking his advice.
The grower had spoken at our local Society a year or so ago, so I was familiar with his operation and had a couple of his plants. The listing began with this: "PLEASE CALL EARLY FOR BEST SELECTION. MOST ITEMS ARE LIMITED TO JUST ONE AVAILABLE PLANT. LISTINGS ARE ALL ORIGINAL DIVISIONS, UNLESS LISTED OTHERWISE."
There were plants in the listing identified as mericlones, but the others were all original divisions. I confirmed this with the grower who knew the provenance of the three divisions I ordered. They have been in business for generations, so I believe can be trusted. One plant came with the date of its Agdia virus test on the tag (2017 labeled Virus Free) and I was encouraged to test the others when I asked about it, as they can't test all their plants. I did, and all 3 were virus free. The divisions were healthy, but small (3-5 bulbs). Two were in spike. They arrived in excellent condition. I am very pleased and will definitely buy plants from them again!
 

Guldal

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Ah, I didn't know, you and Terry know each other, Belle!

Thank you for the background information, too - just to make sure: I didn't intend to question your seller's credibility (your 'Summit' is just so beautifull!), I was just musing in general over the troubles posed by the whole mericloning business, and some of the trials and tribulations of the orchid grower in general! 😁

Looking forward to see the other plants, that you acquired, when in bloom!
 

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