callosum or barbatum?

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Trithor

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These two plants are blooming next to each other on one of the benches. They are both growing very bright (a little too bright, but I don't have enough space to provide them with more shade, so they are forced to grow with my multis)
They are both from the same supplier, purchased a year apart. Both sold as barbatum. What do you guys think?






 

Rick

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They both could be barbatum, but the upper plant with more downswept petals could also be callosum var. subleavae (especially if the flower is smaller than the lower more wideswept flower).

The two are both found in Malaysia, and Cribb's book suggests the distinction is arbitrary.
 

Migrant13

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Wow after looking at pictures of both on the net, I can't tell the difference. Perhaps the staminate will be the deciding factor but I am not sure I can tell. Either way, super plants and great growing!
 

troy

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I've gotta say you are an excellent grower, the display is excellent!! although l'm not a fan of these, l could see how others are
 

PaphMadMan

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Unless there are differences that are not apparent from your photos (we don't have equivalent head-on shots, nothing for scale, etc.) I would say these 2 plants are well within the normal variation I would expect to see between seedlings from the same pod. Unless you have information to the contrary, since they came from the same supplier under the same name they very well could be from one batch of seedlings. I see no reason to think they might be something different from each other, whatever they are labeled.

With the same provisions, with this appearance I would tend to call these callosum (perhaps sublaeve) rather than barbatum. But without more evidence I would keep them labeled as they came from the vendor. I'm probably more comfortable than most with ambiguity in where to draw the line between related taxa, especially in a case like callosum/barbatum.
 

The Mutant

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To me, they look more like callosum than barbatum, but then I've just recently discovered how similar these species are, soo...

Whatever they are, they are gorgeously well grown plants. I really wish mine would grow like that. :eek:
 

tomkalina

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They appear closer to Paph. callosum or callosum v sublaeve than Paph. barbatum, which tends to have smaller, darker flowers with a more horizontal petal stance. If you Google Paph. barbatum, you'll find a few examples of what I would consider a true barbatum.
 

Trithor

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My understanding is that at the extremes of their range, they are easy (sort of) to distinguish. Barbatum from the south and callosum from the north, with those populations in between a bit of a mix. It is unclear as to wether the populations that lie in-between are separate population species or a batch of natural hybrids (my personal belief). However the truth of the matter is that the plants from this group show characteristics which are 'all mixed up'.
 

abax

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I loooove 'em! You're such an accomplished grower that I feel inadequate.
I think they're callosum because I'm planning to buy a few in spring and
have been exploring photos on the net. Both are gorgeous.
 

SlipperKing

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For me these fit well within the callosum description. I really cannot see any barbatum influence in either clone as per "barbatum description" (as in far southern species)
 

TyroneGenade

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I imagine that Cribb's book has a taxonomic key? If you follow the key, it should diagnose barbartum from callosum. If there is no difference, then these are barbatum as it is the older taxon (1823 vs 1886 for callosum) and callosum (and all its forms) would be junior synonyms to barbartum.

Bottom line: if there is no difference between callosum and barbartum then these are barbatum.
 

tomkalina

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Tyrone,

Both first and second editions of Cribb's The Genus Paphiopedilum agree on the separation of barbatum and callosum on the basis of petal stance, petal length, and dorsal sepal shape. Excellent drawings/photos of these differences in each edition.
 

labskaus

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Nice clumps = good growing!
Petal stance and colour, mainly, make these more callosum (sublaeve) than barbatum to me.
 

emydura

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Nice plants Gary. These aren't easy to grow that well.

I think this post demonstrates how ridiculous it is that barbatum and callosum are classified as separate species. The distinctions are subtle at best.
 

SlipperKing

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Nice plants Gary. These aren't easy to grow that well.

I think this post demonstrates how ridiculous it is that barbatum and callosum are classified as separate species. The distinctions are subtle at best.

But this leaves two questions in my mind, which may never be answered. Where these two distinct species at one time that grew together and hybridized or one large spreading species that now has two distinct variants at opposite ends of its range?
It could be this was a large population of one species and with land masses shifting and a number of ice ages creating sea levels to rise and fall separated into three or more distinct species. now in modern times with current land masses as they are, two, callosum and barbatum are become one again. Leaving lawrenceanum and maybe others out of the picture for the moment.
 

PaphMadMan

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But this leaves two questions in my mind, which may never be answered. Where these two distinct species at one time that grew together and hybridized or one large spreading species that now has two distinct variants at opposite ends of its range?
It could be this was a large population of one species and with land masses shifting and a number of ice ages creating sea levels to rise and fall separated into three or more distinct species. now in modern times with current land masses as they are, two, callosum and barbatum are become one again. Leaving lawrenceanum and maybe others out of the picture for the moment.

That's a very good summary of why "species" is an artificial category we try to impose on the real world, not a natural distinction.
 

Trithor

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It was during my early years as a med student that I became interested in paph species (82 to 87), and spent a fair portion of my vac time trying to find them in the wild. My family was split between Africa and Nederland, so every trip back home usually saw me taking the very long way home via SE Asia. I managed to see callosum and barbatum in the wild from the north of Thailand to the south of peninsular Malaysia. I unfortunately gifted my collection to another grower when I started with my specialty and no longer had any time to look after my plants. (It was only when I left medicine to start a timber import business that I started growing my orchids again). To cut a long story short, what I did notice was that the species are easily distinguished at the extremes of their distribution, but in the middle, they kind of blend, requiring a much more critical and observant eye than my own to differentiate.:eek:

Thank you all for your input. I posted the question to highlight the problem of species/nat hybrid/artificial hybrid being more widespread than just in the cochlo group which seems to get all the bad publicity, while there is a bigger problem in the most extensively hybridized group, which would call into question nearly every name from Maudiae onwards:evil::rollhappy:
 

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