Banana - experiment

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gonewild

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So this would just bypass the requirement to manufacture them first (by photosynthesis, which embryonic orchids do not have anyway).

Embryonic orchids don't have roots either to absorb the sugar from the media, so how will they get it? :)

Keep in mind there are a handful of other fert mixes (for adult plants) out there which add sugar.

Do they give good results by supplying the sugars to the plants or by feeding beneficial organisms that convert the sugar to nutrients for the plant?
Invitro there are no beneficial organisms.
 

Rick

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Embryonic orchids don't have roots either to absorb the sugar from the media, so how will they get it? :)



Do they give good results by supplying the sugars to the plants or by feeding beneficial organisms that convert the sugar to nutrients for the plant?
Invitro there are no beneficial organisms.

In a supposedly bacteria and fungal free flasking system how do they uptake the ton of sugar, peptone, ....... and all the other complex carbons in banana, potato, coconut milk..... ?

I don't know if anyone playing with the sugar based ferts has trialed them in aseptic hydroponic systems, so can't answer if direct uptake is the mechanism. It's probably been demonstrated for non orchids, but we grow crop plants to make sugar for us, so that would not be a cost benefit to grow crop species by adding sugar.
 

gonewild

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In a supposedly bacteria and fungal free flasking system how do they uptake the ton of sugar, peptone, ....... and all the other complex carbons in banana, potato, coconut milk..... ?

They run on fumes! :)
Since they have no roots in the media they either get the nutrients from the stem tissue that is in contact with the media or absorb it from the atmosphere inside the flask. In either case they are taking in nutrients without using roots.

What happens to the solid agar nutrient compounds inside the flask? Perhaps they vaporize and are absorbed from the atmosphere.
 

Rick

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They run on fumes! :)
Since they have no roots in the media they either get the nutrients from the stem tissue that is in contact with the media or absorb it from the atmosphere inside the flask. In either case they are taking in nutrients without using roots.

What happens to the solid agar nutrient compounds inside the flask? Perhaps they vaporize and are absorbed from the atmosphere.

In some ways contrast to the corn seed. The embryo at the tip of the seed is rootless too, but the bulk of the seed (packet) is a pile of sugar/carbohydrate to get the embryo up to root and leaf size where it can start accessing environmental water and carbon.

In orchids the seed packet is absent so the fungus connection (which is temporary or non-essential in photosynthesizing plants) is used to transport carbon to the orchid embryo.
 

gonewild

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In some ways contrast to the corn seed. The embryo at the tip of the seed is rootless too, but the bulk of the seed (packet) is a pile of sugar/carbohydrate to get the embryo up to root and leaf size where it can start accessing environmental water and carbon.

In orchids the seed packet is absent so the fungus connection (which is temporary or non-essential in photosynthesizing plants) is used to transport carbon to the orchid embryo.

That triggers a lot of thoughts that would sound crazy to most people.
One being that orchid roots are evolved to absorb nutrients in forms other than simple dissolved salts. If the embryo can obtain nutrients from the fungus without roots why would the mature plant not continue to get nutrients from that supplier? Why switch to a nutrient supply that comes sporadically when and if it rains when you have a fungus living on your roots that will deliver nutrients all day long every day?
 

Trithor

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There are reports of reduced germination on banana containing mediums (I have not noticed this yet), but there is almost certainly improved growth on replates on banana. The banana used (from my reading) is green banana. Pulping banana to add to the medium is a messy business, so to simplify matters we just buy banana powder (and as indicated, there is no control over the age of banana used). There is certainly a big difference in the requirements for germination and growth.
 

cnycharles

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Maybe it doesn't 'switch' but 'adds'... Seeing how other orchids are largely dependent on the fungus
A tiny embryo likely doesn't have huge fast food needs, so in culture if it takes a long time to be drawn or diffused through the outer later it will be okay. Maybe in nature with fungus it would be ready faster?
 

myxodex

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That triggers a lot of thoughts that would sound crazy to most people.
One being that orchid roots are evolved to absorb nutrients in forms other than simple dissolved salts. If the embryo can obtain nutrients from the fungus without roots why would the mature plant not continue to get nutrients from that supplier? Why switch to a nutrient supply that comes sporadically when and if it rains when you have a fungus living on your roots that will deliver nutrients all day long every day?

You've hit on a dogma in plant science which is rapidly losing it's grip, i.e. that plants only take up inorganic nutrients. The initial discoveries of plants taking up amino acids for instance were considered to be of little relevence outside the laboratory and we now know they have evolved specialised transporters for acidic and basic amino acids. The finding that surprised me was that plants also take up di- and tri- peptides, and they use different transporter genes for the di- and tri- peptides. I had wrongly assumed that adding peptone (protein digest) to orchid germination media was inefficient because only a small fraction of the digest is made up of free (single) amino acids but rather mostly as oligopeptides. It turns out that di- and tri- peptide uptake might even be more efficient than that for single amino acids.

Then there are the extremes of course ... check this out. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i97IGPaUMx8
 

polyantha

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@Trithor: I have noticed that rothschildianum was growing faster in the sowing flask without banana than in the replate flask with 60g/l banana. So i had to reduced the concentration of banana for this species. I noticed that not just in two or three flasks, but on pretty much all the roths I sowed since I started. I am still trying to find the optimal concentration for roth, so at the moment it is 40g/l. Do you have experience with roth?
 
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Hello, would anybody know the contact information for Trithor and polyantha? I see that they haven't been active for quite a while but I want to ask some questions to them. Thanks in advance.
 
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