Abert Einstein did not believe in God

[Berthold]

Einstein letter auctioned for three million dollars

A handwritten letter from Albert Einstein has been auctioned in New York for a record $ 2.89 million (2.55 million euros). In the letter to the philosopher Eric Gutkind, the famous physicist doubts the existence of God. The auction house Christie's spoke of a record price for a handwritten letter from Einstein.

Einstein states in his 1954 letter written in German that to him the word "God" is nothing but the expression of human weakness. Like all other religions, he also refers to his own Jewish religion as superstition. Most recently, according to Christie's, this letter was sold to a private collector for $ 404,000 in 2008.

 

[Hien]

St. Peter said ,
Lord , what is going on, there is a crazy hair homeless man wandering around for 63 years out there.
the Lord replies,
Oh my Peter, the gate is wide opened but he did not believe his eyes because the address said "the house of God" :rollhappy:

I could think of a better joke,

On the day of auction at the Christie,
2,89 million going once going twice sold to the gentleman in red with 2 sharp bumps on his forehead

 

[Happypaphy7]

I was at Christie's that day and read the letter.
Of course, religions are man-made and used to control people.

 

[ehanes7612]

I wonder if there were any orchids up for auction that day ??????

 

[Ray]

Of course, religions are man-made and used to control people.

Yes, there is some of that.

The Hebrew admonitions about what you can- and cannot eat were wise guidance for the time. Are they applicable now in our society? No, in my opinion, but some people take all such stuff literally. If that's the "control" you're referring to, so be it. It's not control at all, in my mind.

I really think that ancient documents like the Bible, Torah, Koran, or whatever, are the documented interpretations of observations or suppositions - from the time they were written. That means that they are outdated, and should be read only as interpretations, not as fact.

I am an active member of my Episcopal parish and sing in the choir. However, being an engineer and scientist, I really have a hard time believing that there is an all-powerful being called "God". However, as a keen observer of nature, and for other reasons I won't go into, I have a very hard time believing that there isn't some sort of universal force that has set everything we know in motion. Call it "God", "nature", "the universe", I don't care - it's your personal interpretation.

Nothing exists without there being a reason for it to do so...including you and me.

There is a force, or energy, or call it what you will, that exists within the physical, chemical and biological makeup of everything that exists. What happens to it when we "die"? Some will say "we go to heaven" (or hell - and you know who I'm referring to...), but I believe that the energy is released back into the "universal pool" of energy and knowledge, to the advantage of the entire universe. Don't forget that matter an energy may be exchanged, but cannot truly be destroyed. That makes me think that our only purpose for existing is to advance that pool somehow; however we are best designed to do so.

For a mountain, it is affected by the climate and is eroded, releasing trapped nutrients into the environment. Bacteria, fungi, and plants receive that and flourish, giving higher forms of life nutrition. They have "learned" from their environments, and have therefore contributed to it, advancing it. We accept nutrition from those forms of life, enabling us to advance it further.

Back to religion for a moment... Look into them in detail. The "root" message in all of them is "love". Yep. That's as controlling as possible. Yes, there are people who want to use the lore to control others, but if you understand the true aspect and not buy into the BS, all is good.

I think a lot of the world could use to consider that.

 

[ehanes7612]

There is only Bob

JR 'Bob' Dobbs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1Byf9KbWbo

 

[Berthold]

Yes, there is some of that.

The Hebrew admonitions about what you can- and cannot eat were wise guidance for the time. Are they applicable now in our society? No, in my opinion, but some people take all such stuff literally. If that's the "control" you're referring to, so be it. It's not control at all, in my mind.

I really think that ancient documents like the Bible, Torah, Koran, or whatever, are the documented interpretations of observations or suppositions - from the time they were written. That means that they are outdated, and should be read only as interpretations, not as fact.

I am an active member of my Episcopal parish and sing in the choir. However, being an engineer and scientist, I really have a hard time believing that there is an all-powerful being called "God". However, as a keen observer of nature, and for other reasons I won't go into, I have a very hard time believing that there isn't some sort of universal force that has set everything we know in motion. Call it "God", "nature", "the universe", I don't care - it's your personal interpretation.

Nothing exists without there being a reason for it to do so...including you and me.

There is a force, or energy, or call it what you will, that exists within the physical, chemical and biological makeup of everything that exists. What happens to it when we "die"? Some will say "we go to heaven" (or hell - and you know who I'm referring to...), but I believe that the energy is released back into the "universal pool" of energy and knowledge, to the advantage of the entire universe. Don't forget that matter an energy may be exchanged, but cannot truly be destroyed. That makes me think that our only purpose for existing is to advance that pool somehow; however we are best designed to do so.

For a mountain, it is affected by the climate and is eroded, releasing trapped nutrients into the environment. Bacteria, fungi, and plants receive that and flourish, giving higher forms of life nutrition. They have "learned" from their environments, and have therefore contributed to it, advancing it. We accept nutrition from those forms of life, enabling us to advance it further.

Back to religion for a moment... Look into them in detail. The "root" message in all of them is "love". Yep. That's as controlling as possible. Yes, there are people who want to use the lore to control others, but if you understand the true aspect and not buy into the BS, all is good.

I think a lot of the world could use to consider that.

No, The first half of religious laws is control and maintenance of power, the second half is supposed to ensure social peace in the community and avoid murder and manslaughter.

 

[Berthold]

I was at Christie's that day and read the letter.
Of course, religions are man-made and used to control people.

What was Your maximum offer for the letter in auction?

 

[Ray]

No, The first half of religious laws is control and maintenance of power, the second half is supposed to ensure social peace in the community and avoid murder and manslaughter.

There may be religions that are designed to function that way, and there are some people who subjugate themselves to that, but I believe you are painting with too broad of a brush if you think they're all that way.

Don't you have a mandatory "church tax" in Germany? We don't here. Maybe that explains your belligerent attitude.

 

[Berthold]

Don't you have a mandatory "church tax" in Germany? We don't here. Maybe that explains your belligerent attitude.

No, we don't have mandatory church tax in Germany.
We had a mandatory church tax 900 years ago when we were still burning witches and when we killed infidels on the Crusades. But this is no longer common in Germany of today.

 

[xiphius]

No, we don't have mandatory church tax in Germany.
We had a mandatory church tax 900 years ago when we were still burning witches and when we killed infidels on the Crusades. But this is no longer common in Germany of today.

Funny. I thought there was a church tax in Germany as well. And a little googling around pulls up a ton of articles just like this one from just a couple years ago (link). The general consensus is that there is a tax if you were baptized (because then you are automatically considered a Christian) unless you "officially" renounce your faith. I am not entirely sure what they mean by "officially" but I am guessing there is some paperwork involved since there is apparently a fee involved with that also.

That said, not knowing the full ins-and-outs of German tax law, there might be some kinda loophole that allows most people to just ignore it anyways. According to a lot of articles though, it is collected automatically out of most people's paychecks.

 

[xiphius]

...and here is another article specifically about how to avoid having to pay the church tax if you are moving to Germany from another country... from just last year... (link)

Perhaps you should take a closer look at your taxes next year Berthold ... (unless you were never baptised or are non-Christian, 'cause then it just wouldn't apply and that might explain why you were unaware of this).

 

[Berthold]

.
Perhaps you should take a closer look at your taxes next year Berthold ... (unless you were never baptised or are non-Christian, 'cause then it just wouldn't apply and that might explain why you were unaware of this).

I have two professionals who have to have a look at my taxes

I can assure You, there are no church taxes in Germany and I never payed taxes to the church but a lot to the state.
But what You mean could be that the German state collects the membership fee for the Catholic and Evangelical Church in Germany.
That is a special service of the state administration for the two Christian churches in Germany. But for this service a part of my taxes are taken.

 

[Berthold]

There may be religions that are designed to function that way, and there are some people who subjugate themselves to that, but I believe you are painting with too broad of a brush if you think they're all that way.
...

On one point I agree with you.
There are many people who need a God. This God tells them not to kill their neighbor. We call that ethics.
Albert Einstein and me are not among these people.

But sometimes this God forgets to explain to them that they should not kill the disbelieving neighbor from the side road either. That we call religion.

 

[ehanes7612]

But sometimes this God forgets to explain to them that they should not kill the disbelieving neighbor from the side road either. That we call religion.

That's zealotry ...which is a partition of religion that is mostly fringe, and does rear its ugly head in the face of charisma or when people believe they are being oppressed. 99.999999 % of the time, religion functions to create identity within a community. As an agnostic, I can still understand the need for this , especially before the 20th century. It's not without its problems, group identity along any lines usually creates division and the classification of an other...but its main purpose (religion) has been to create solidarity among a tribe or community. This is why Europe has so many Gothic and Romanesque churches. It requires the resources of that entire community coming together to build such architecture. You can have your cynical reason why these structures were built but it still doesn't belie the nature of their service..as a place of worship and sanctuary from the outside ..a place of respite. When I am in Europe I spend a significant time in these churches. I don't believe in a god either and I am totally on board with Einstein, but I still can recognize the value of a religion.

There are many people who need a God. This God tells them not to kill their neighbor. We call that ethics.
Albert Einstein and me are not among these people.

I don't agree with this. I don't believe morality or ethics is a consequence of religion but religion is a consequence of morality and ethics. We did not learn the value of not killing our neighbor from a god..we were engrained with it from the need to support each other and survive. As our communities grew, inclusion grew. The law that you shall not kill is of a punitive nature, a legal need to command an authority for the penalty of murder. It is not designed to be preventative..if there were suddenly no laws , people would not just go out killing suddenly because they had free reign...they would need something to incite them and that really doesn't depend on any law, either way. Ethics are something you learn from your tribe, from the inclusion of familial and community structures, and tend to be UNIVERSAL!!!!!!!!, which underlies a genetic propensity to be moral..people may still call on religious law to enforce ethics but the the main ethical tenants are predominantly guided by these familial and community structures that would exist without religion

 

[Berthold]

I don't believe morality or ethics is a consequence of religion but religion is a consequence of morality and ethics.

Ethics is a value of human society which facilitates coexistence.

Religious societies also want to live with less conflicts in the group. Therefore Religion also propagates some of the ethic rules.

 

[xiphius]

I have two professionals who have to have a look at my taxes

I can assure You, there are no church taxes in Germany and I never payed taxes to the church but a lot to the state.
But what You mean could be that the German state collects the membership fee for the Catholic and Evangelical Church in Germany.
That is a special service of the state administration for the two Christian churches in Germany. But for this service a part of my taxes are taken.

If a portion of your income is compulsorily collected by the state and given to the church as part of a non-optional "membership fee" ... then that is most definitely a "church tax" by any definition. If it makes you feel better to call it something else, then so be it .

The only way to get out of paying it is to "officially" renounce your faith. Germany is one of a handful of European countries where church and state are intertwined like this. There is nothing like this in the Americas.

In fact, the "Moving to Germany" guide I linked actually advises that if you are moving to Germany and have been baptized, then it is better to officially declare your religion and go through the official process of renouncing it. There have been a couple documented cases (admittedly rare though) of Germany actually coming after foreign expats and trying to make them "prove" that they are not part of a specific church. This is VERY hard to do if you are from a country like the US... since we have no official system in place to declare or renounce church membership. If you wanna go, then you go... if you don't, then you don't. It's your business. It is possible to be a baptized, but non-practicing, member of a Christian church (a status which Germany does not recognize).

 

[ehanes7612]

Ethics is a value of human society which facilitates coexistence.

Religious societies also want to live with less conflicts in the group. Therefore Religion also propagates some of the ethic rules.

Yes, religious societies are human societies...just because the religion pops up doesnt mean that they lose their previous values...typically, they co-opt those values and give them a different spin but underlying those values is still the root value that preceded all religions

 

[ehanes7612]

If a portion of your income is compulsorily collected by the state and given to the church as part of a non-optional "membership fee" ... then that is most definitely a "church tax" by any definition. If it makes you feel better to call it something else, then so be it .

The only way to get out of paying it is to "officially" renounce your faith. Germany is one of a handful of European countries where church and state are intertwined like this. There is nothing like this in the Americas.

In fact, the "Moving to Germany" guide I linked actually advises that if you are moving to Germany and have been baptized, then it is better to officially declare your religion and go through the official process of renouncing it. There have been a couple documented cases (admittedly rare though) of Germany actually coming after foreign expats and trying to make them "prove" that they are not part of a specific church. This is VERY hard to do if you are from a country like the US... since we have no official system in place to declare or renounce church membership. If you wanna go, then you go... if you don't, then you don't. It's your business. It is possible to be a baptized, but non-practicing, member of a Christian church (a status which Germany does not recognize).

It is also possible to be an atheist christian (christian atheist?) in the US...people who identify Christ as a morale and ethical leader but don't recognize the trinity..I often classify myself as such when I am secure in my knowledge that god doesnt exist. I embraced the values of christ's teachings on ethical matters but rejected holy matters and growing up in a the south..my community was christian ..I went to church (and liked it until I was 12) but was one of those kids who often questioned the existence of god (although I have gone back and forth on believing in a western religious type diety, moreso not believing lately)

 

[Berthold]

Yes, religious societies are human societies...just because the religion pops up doesnt mean that they lose their previous values...typically, they co-opt those values and give them a different spin but underlying those values is still the root value that preceded all religions

In religious societies some ethic rules are overlaid by other rules.So religious societies have partly different rules and not all general ethic rules are accepted.