3 charlesworthiis

The first two have the same clonal parents (‘Top Hat’ x ‘Pink Blush’) -- The first I purchased from Fox Valley, the second from Piping Rock. The third one is from Orchid Inn, and the parents are (‘Jumbo’ x ‘Half-n-Half’).

Very nice... I still wonder if the beefy charlesworthii with wide dorsal and petals are pure ones or hybrids...

When I see King Charles on one side ( and I am sure people did this kind of breeding decades ago already), the fake esquirolei taka FCC/AOS and Atlas SM/WOC that were Birdborough x esquirolei, I just wonder, though I have no idea...

SlipperFan said:

The first two have the same clonal parents (‘Top Hat’ x ‘Pink Blush’) -- The first I purchased from Fox Valley, the second from Piping Rock. The third one is from Orchid Inn, and the parents are (‘Jumbo’ x ‘Half-n-Half’).

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Third one for me. While I'm here, do you happen to know if this needs a similar culture as paph henryuanum?

Very nice blooms, Dot..

Beautiful Dot. This is one of my favorite species.
Can you give us a quick run down of your culture? especially winter.

Gorgeous Dot. They are all different. Third one for me as well. That dorsal is amazing. Nicely photographed as always.

David

The third one is really different!!! Very large dorsal and large petals!!! However in 1 and 2 there is more green/less brown!!!! Jean

JeanLux said:

The third one is really different!!! Very large dorsal and large petals!!! However in 1 and 2 there is more green/less brown!!!! Jean

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That's the problem in fact... Anyway they are very nice, but pure charlesworthii, we will never know for sure

Roth said:

That's the problem in fact... Anyway they are very nice, but pure charlesworthii, we will never know for sure

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The third charlesworthii, ('Jumbo' x 'Half-n-Half'), is a sib cross Sam made from two half album plants acquired from the Orchid Zone. The albums I have posted and the one Dot posted here are from the same cross. http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13895&highlight=charlesworthii

I got some of this kind of breeding from Japan, even they have some doubts about what they are exactly.

The problems are that they grow slower than normal charlesworthii, the leaf shape is not right compared to wild charlesworthii, no matter the Indian, Burmese or Chinese types, and some have petals that are about twice as wide as any wild charlesworthii ever found. So either they are polyploids, or they are hybrids.

This kind of mistake can happen, the highest awarded (fake) esquirolei in the world Taka FCC/AOS and Atlas GM/WOC were in fact pot plant hybrids. Many spicerianum on steroids are bred from Bruno 'Superbum', an old diploid pot plant. Maybe I become paranoid or there might be a problem somewhere.

Many 'very selected' parents in the 80's and 90's came from not too honest dealers in Europe, like primulinums, spicerianum, insigne, villosum, boxalii, etc... and a fair amount were just pot plant hybrids ( add to the list lawrenceanum album Tradition, some superbiens album, selected by someone I know two decades ago from a pot plant nurseries near Bruges...).

If you look at the King Charles, quite a few cannot be told apart from those highly selected charlesworthii, or just barely...

I have seen recently tranlienianum 'red' offered in Taiwan and Japan, they were plants from Klinge, tranlienianum x coccineum, but they look like reddish tranlienianum on steroids.

But the F1 generations from those 'high quality charlesworthii' look sometimes weird. Here is as well a plant of Jumbo x Half and Half:



The plants simply do not look right for a charlesworthii...

I like the 3rd one. This is indeed a very nice species. I should get one.

paphreek said:

The third charlesworthii, ('Jumbo' x 'Half-n-Half'), is a sib cross Sam made from two half album plants acquired from the Orchid Zone. The albums I have posted and the one Dot posted here are from the same cross. http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13895&highlight=charlesworthii

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Hi Ross, I was checking Sam's website. Are you meaning that you bought charlesworthii, ('Jumbo' x 'Half-n-Half') and bloomed out as an albino? the descriptions says that both of the parents are albino. But the siblings are coloratum.

Nice charlie show Dot!

eggshells said:

Third one for me. While I'm here, do you happen to know if this needs a similar culture as paph henryuanum?

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I grow my henrys & charlies side by side, so for me it's a yes.

paphreek said:

The third charlesworthii, ('Jumbo' x 'Half-n-Half'), is a sib cross Sam made from two half album plants acquired from the Orchid Zone. The albums I have posted and the one Dot posted here are from the same cross. http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13895&highlight=charlesworthii

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eggshells said:

Hi Ross, I was checking Sam's website. Are you meaning that you bought charlesworthii, ('Jumbo' x 'Half-n-Half') and bloomed out as an albino? the descriptions says that both of the parents are albino. But the siblings are coloratum.

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Most albums come from coloratums so a certain % will come out coloratums. They lack the underneath leaf markings so they're easy to ID as flasklings.
I have 3 different coloratums and 2 different albums but the one thing they share in common is the plant type is similar on all 5. One album I got from Ross (adult, a div.) and the other is this cross from Sam ( an unbloomed seedling, he claimed BS and yes it is slow growing).

Wonderful blooms!!! I like the 1st one more

eggshells said:

Hi Ross, I was checking Sam's website. Are you meaning that you bought charlesworthii, ('Jumbo' x 'Half-n-Half') and bloomed out as an albino? the descriptions says that both of the parents are albino. But the siblings are coloratum.

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A few years ago, I bought a flask of this sib cross from Sam. Seven of the 25+ seedlings turned out to be albums (fma. sandowiae). The rest were normal colored. Both parents were half albums, so roughly 25% of the progeny should be albums. It is easy to tell which will be albums when they are large unbloomed seedlings. The albums have no maroon markings on the base of the leaves and the normal colored ones do.

I believe Sam separated out the album ones from that cross early. Regarding the photos, they're all nice but the 3rd one is incredible!

What about the amount of spotting underneath the leafs?? I found that most wild type has denser spotting (goes from base to half the length of the leaf) than most line breeded clone, which only have around the base.

They are all great ! I like the last one :clap::clap:

Stone said:

Beautiful Dot. This is one of my favorite species.
Can you give us a quick run down of your culture? especially winter.

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I only have baby henryanums, so I'm growing those a bit warmer than charlesworthii right now. I cut back on watering in the winter on all my Paphs. Some more than others. I find Stephen's slipperorchids.info invaluable for information about care.

eggshells said:

Hi Ross, I was checking Sam's website. Are you meaning that you bought charlesworthii, ('Jumbo' x 'Half-n-Half') and bloomed out as an albino? the descriptions says that both of the parents are albino. But the siblings are coloratum.

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NYEric said:

I believe Sam separated out the album ones from that cross early. Regarding the photos, they're all nice but the 3rd one is incredible!

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My charlesworthii, album 'Wacousta' AM/AOS and this one were purchased at the same time, on the same table. Sam knew the album one would be album because it was in bloom -- the flower wasn't great, but it got better. Same with this one.

wonderlen3000 said:

What about the amount of spotting underneath the leafs?? I found that most wild type has denser spotting (goes from base to half the length of the leaf) than most line breeded clone, which only have around the base.

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This is one of my concerns too with some of those 'line bred' clones, the spotting of the leaf, texture, and shape are really different from any wild plants I have ever seen.

Now maybe I'm paranoid, but those line bred plants may well incorporate another species at some stage. If they are polyploids, the other species may well too never reappear, and be easy to discard from the subsequent generations by selecting the proper plants.