Splitting hairs.

I have these two P. hirsutissimums in bloom now, I think the first one is v.esquirolei but not sure. They sure are different, both are real nice looking, I'll post some pics and see if anybody has anything to add. Thanks Jim.

very very nice bloom

Interesting differences and nicely grown plants, as usual Jim!

interesting duo!!! I googled a bit to read diff. between hirsut. and esqu.; they seem to look quite similar , esquirolei is said to be somewhat larger in the flower, having a paler background and a darker 'foreground' coloring, its hairs being shorter!?
The somewhat pending petals of the 2nd are intriguing!! Jean

Amazing both!!! The second has an interestingly weird shape of petals...!!! Nice...!!!

They're beautiful, but the one on the right seems to have lowii in it...I don't know- they sure are different, however! Nice!

:clap: :clap: I'll take either!

Here are some differences in Birk's book:
hirsutissimum - "Leaf tip: at times one-toothed, usually the tooth is undeveloped. Leaf markings: Plain, veined when held to the light. Leaf underside: Plain, some red-purple spotting. Plant habit: compact to loose. Stem habit: Short, upright, to normally drooping.
Cool grower, blooming winter.
Esquirolei- "Leaf tip:Acute, one toothed. Leaf markings: Plain, obscure veining on some. Leaf underside: Plain. Plant habit: Loose. Stem habit: upright to slightly drooping."
Warm grower blooming March-May.

The primary difference is supposed to be the amount and length of the hairs on the stems and ovary. The second difference is in flower size.

The nominal form is supposed to have smaller flowers and very hairy stems and ovary. Esquirolei with bigger flowers and less hair. If something is "hirsut" it's supposed to be "hairy".

The use of the terms "very and less" are obviously subjective, and unless you know someone who has seen verified "hariness quality and quantity" of wild plants of known collection locals I think you are going to get lots of subjective answers. Also this species has been in cultivation for a long time, and I bet there are lots of crosses of the two forms with a smeary range of "hairiness" and flower size.

Since your photos aren't focused on the stems and ovaries, it's hard to get a sense of the primary descriptor for these two plants for comparison.

I can see a fair amount of green on the stems so I can guess that they are both relatively low on hair quantity, especially compared to my plant. What is the flower span? My flowers tend to run 14-16 cm, but I recently purchased an "esquirolei" in bloom that has larger flowers, and relatively "naked" stems.

I origianlly purchesd my plant from Andy's as "esquirolei" but that may be in doubt.

I'll take some stem/ovary pics of mine later and post alongside yours for comparison.

Is this like the difference between besseae and dalesandroi?

SlipperFan said:

Is this like the difference between besseae and dalesandroi?

Click to expand...

yes

a couple more

Heres a close up of the stem and ovary of a plant that I purchased as esquirolei, but I think is actually the nominal form or an integrade of the two forms.


A 13cm flower


The plants. Notice how the leaves bend, they are fairly soft and pliable too.


Another plant I purchased in bloom about a year ago also as esquirolei. Can't find the pics, but the flower was 3 or so cm bigger than my original plant, the stem was less hairy, and the foliage is more upright and stiff. In comparison its just a more robust plant and flower.

I found a picture of my new "esquirolei" in bloom from last year (April 08). The stem pic is just a crop and enlargement from the flower pic, so it may not be much help. My memory is that its just short fuzz in comparison to my other plant.

This flower is over 16cm I believe.

Interesting...
I purchased a hirsutissimum from Ernie, it has not bloomed yet, but it has the stiffer leaves, which is fitting the description by Lance.

Going through the taxonomic descriptions of the varieties by Averyanov demonstrates allot of overlap and variety within and among the varieties.

For instance in flower size:

Nominal (6)10-14(16) cm
esquirolei (10)12-16 cm
chiwuanum 6-8(10) cm

(#) = rare/extreme size in the population.

Also there is no quantification of "hariness", which also seems to vary on the same stem as the flower ages (as with the degree of reflexing and undulation of the petals).

I'm also suspicious about foliage differences because I've had too many plants "change" there general structure to conform with my growing conditions.

Averyanov has seen tons of this species in Vietnam, and indicates that the differences between the "varieties" are probably insignificant, and "are the result of attitudinal differentiation of the species".

i.e upland vs lowland forms of a variable and wide ranging species.

thanks a lot for all these details Rick!!! All in all hirsut. and esquir. seem to be rather similar ! ! Jean

Sorry it took so long to get back to this thread, Rick had asked for some
spam and stem/ovary closeups, so here's what I got. The first one that I thought was esquirolei but I'm still not sure.
The first one has a span of just under 5".




The second one is at 6" span.

their both esquiroleis Jim. From what I remember hirsutissimum it has wider and floopy leaves like Rick's first plant

Based on "hairiness factor", both of yours would be considered esquirolei compared to mine. Based on flower size, your smaller one is the same size (about 13cm) as mine (a good size nominal but smallish esquirolei), and the big one is bigger than the common size range of nominal hirsutisimum and within the normal size range for esquirolei.

As you can see, this is pretty subjective without knowing exactly where the original parents were collected.

Hey Jim,
I agree with both Rick's, that both your plants are likely esquirolei. My hirsutissimum has fairly dense hairs that are over 1/8 inch long, with the odd hair nearing 1/4 inch. Also note on this plant the flower stem is shorter than the length of the leaves, so the flower is held low, in the foliage.
I have several esquirolei, and they have various gradations of fuzz, but none as hairy as this clone. All my esquirolei have flower stems longer than the leaves. There is a lot of variation, some I would be hard put to place a definative name on.
Leo

Rick said:

Based on "hairiness factor", both of yours would be considered esquirolei compared to mine. Based on flower size, your smaller one is the same size (about 13cm) as mine (a good size nominal but smallish esquirolei), and the big one is bigger than the common size range of nominal hirsutisimum and within the normal size range for esquirolei.

As you can see, this is pretty subjective without knowing exactly where the original parents were collected.

Click to expand...

That was my first thought also.........