Phrag D'allesandroi

I was under the impression that the two had different chromosome counts. Is that true?

Kyle

What a propblem Olaf
It will be just imposible to follow up the hybrids...
We are trying the DNA testing in our University. Lets wait for the results of DNA counts and fingerprints...
Isaias

Has anyone made a chromosonal check w/ plants from Dennis D., whom, I'm sure, has access to the original material?

NYEric said:

Has anyone made a chromosonal check w/ plants from Dennis D., whom, I'm sure, has access to the original material?

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I think the best plant for DNA would be tom Kalinas plant that was ID'd as a true dal. That or a plant collected from the wild in a area far from known besseae populations.

Counts have been done, I done know by who. I imagine Olaf knows. Olaf?

Kyle

It was my understanding that D'allesandroi was considered a variety of besseae until the chromosone count was done and it was discovered that D'allesandroi had a different number than besseae. This fact, as well as the physical differences between the two, is the reason why D'allesandroi was elevated to species status.

I'll check with Phil Cribb, Rudolf Jenny and others here in San Jose to look for exact data on counts and DNA fingerprints, if scientifically published.
Hope to have answers by Friday or Saturday.
I think Olaf's opinion is VERY NECESARY here now, OLAF?
Isaias

Here are the chromosome-numbers counted by Don Wimber

Species
Art
Phragmipedium Chromosomenzahl Autor
besseae 2n = 24 WIMBER
dalessandroi 2n = 28 WIMBER
besseae var. flava 2n = 24, 25, 26 WIMBER


The chromosome-number is an interesting hint for the status of a species, but the morphology is more interesting. I have decided some year ago for myself that a difference of 5 points is necessary for a new species, 3 for a variety.
When I described dalessandroi together with Dodson we described differences in the growths, the inflorescence, the staminode, the petals and also the colour. So we thought that it is enough for a distinct species.
Kyle has shown these differences very clearly in an article of our journal Die Orchidee.

The final decision is always a subjective decision, also when we tried to decide on the base of objective criteria.
The DNA analyze (based only on a sequence of the DNA) could give us new informations about the relationship between the species but cannot give us the final decision if our decision was correct or not.

On the other hand. For me it is necessary that we cultivate these plants under the correct names, if as a species or a variety. We know also that there is a difference bewtween the different local forms of besseae and also dalessandroi. We should stop the mixing of these gene-potential. When we don't do it, we will have in the future no true species only a mixing.


Here the picture of the typeplant of Phrag. dalessandroi


and a group of some years ago in Jersey, named in this time as besseae




Best greetings

Olaf

Please excuse the short words and my bad english, but I had along and hard day in the school.

Amen Olaf, Amen...
I agree with you. DNA SEQUENCE AND COUNT SHOULD NOT be considered as the last word. As you said at the very end it will be alwyas a subjective issue at the botanist discretion. I am very fine with that.
Thank you very much Olaf for your kind info.
Isaias

Olaf
Is there anything I can do for you in this IOCC Meeting?
Isaias

Dear Isaias,
many thanks for your words.
Just this time you could say only the best greetings to Phillip and Rudi. I hope that Rudi yould get his slides early enough for his lecture there.
Perhaps I will have time and the possibility in the future to come to a meetings of IOOC.
Best greetings from the now snowy Bavaria

Olaf

OK Olaf
I will stand behind Rudy, and try to be nice with Phil C...
Best regards
Isaias

NYEric said:

The flower shape doesn't look like [most] stuff I've seen called Phrag. dalessandroi, but then again the one I got from Dennis Dalessandro hasn't bloomed yet so I wont say for sure.

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I'll be curious to see yours bloom Eric. The one I got from him was most likely a Jersey.

Regarding the points of difference, I have noted that Jersey and dalessandroi both seem to have more pronounced fenestration on the pouch than besseae also.

ORG said:

Best greetings from the now snowy Bavaria

Olaf

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